Dailius Wilson

This discussion digs into how the transferable skills of a sales role can prime you for any business position and how the dynamic between buyers and sellers is shifting especially in a world where the third party review is playing a major part in the buying process.


Sahil Mansuri: Hello again and welcome to another episode of the Future of Sales. I’m your host, Sahil Mansuri, CEO of Bravado. And with me today is somebody that -- if you don’t know who Dailius Wilson is, it is your own shortcomings in life that has led you to not know this wonderful human being. Dailius has become a dear friend of mine and he’s the VP of sales at a company called GetAccept and is one of the most well-known kind of thought leaders in the world of sales today. Dailius, welcome to the Future of Sales. I’m so excited to have you, man. Good to see you, brother.


Dailius Wilson: It’s good. It’s just like a chat over dinner. It’s fantastic. Hopefully, everyone can grab a bite and join us as we peruse to the next half hour or so.


Sahil: I think peruse is right and certainly, certainly students will get idea. I hope everyone keeps their appetite after we’ve nerd out about sales together over this. All right, so the promise of The Future of Sales is authentic conversations with authentic sellers, and I would be remiss if I didn’t give our listeners, or viewers an opportunity to at least meet you and to hear a little bit about your background. So maybe Dailius, if we can start there, that would be great.


Dailius: Fantastic. Well, I never dreamed of going into sales; in fact, the opposite. My father was the VP of sales for HP, for Asia Pacific. So, I grew up listening to his calls and I was like, “Hell, no, I’m not doing that.” And actually, I tell this story a lot because he means a lot to me. And I’ll forward the link of this podcast to him and listen back home in Australia. But I remember he got very sick and before he went in to surgery, he actually took my hand and said, “Don’t do sales.” And that was tough, it’s always been tough that at the same time I really believe that sales is a pathway to influence the world and to influence people in a positive way because the skills we develop in sales are so transferable to any facet of life.

But I ended up going into sales and combining that with my development and also marketing skills. So, I always say I’m a generalist. I’m not really good at anything but can do a little bit of all the startup skills. And I started dialing on the phone, I used to sell cold call property over the phone for four hours after college every day. And back then, we had the Nokias that were tiny and unlimited timeframe. So my fingers used to bleed because I dial so much and I put band-aids around my thumb so I could keep dialing, that’s how aggressive I was to make the goal, you know.


Sahil: Wow. Well, that’s -- I mean, again, that’s all we’ve got today for the show. Thank you so much because, I mean, let’s be honest that’s an incredible story. There are so many things I want to get into and so little time, but I have to start here. There’s a lot of people who come on the show who say the word, “I never thought I would get into sales,” you know. I would be one of those people, you know. I went to school in DC, I was studying international relations and foreign affairs, and I was working on the Obama campaign and, you know, I never dreamt that that meant I would have a pathway into sales. But you, you know, had an even stronger reason not to go to sales, not only did you know what the world of sales is like but your father kind of explicitly did not want you to do it. So, then, why did you it?


Dailius: That’s a really interesting point and I think we share that. I found that I always had a stigma and I’m soaked with stigma especially in Australia that sales people were not intelligent. Sales people join the sales with something you did when you couldn’t do anything else. And then, when I was about 19 or 20, I realized how this corporate game started to work where all my friends would apply for internships at big banks or the big ball consulting companies. And then, it would be a process where the 30, 35-year-old people that I met in the MBA program, all of them was still in that same ladder following step-by-step even if they were perhaps better than their colleagues at their job.

And I said, “How the hell do I get out of this and how do I get into a job where results do the talking? And that if I’m 20 and bringing eight times as much revenue as someone else, can that put me on the pathway to being a CEO or a leader of my own company?” And so that’s what inspired me to do sales is I saw -- I made a profession in my mind where it’s quite -- it’s a meritocracy if you just do well, you go from here to here within, a year to two years.


Sahil: I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that that is a part of sales that is extremely appealing to many folks, myself included. You know, seeing what the world of politics is like and seeing that it was just a giant rat race of who you know and how much ask a thing you could do where the people who had the best ideas and the people who wanted to create the most change or the people who were facing the most resistance, while those people who played by the rules and subscribe to pork barrels and subscribe to cronyism would be the ones rewarded in the system. And that just completely didn’t fit right with my immigrant’s background where all I saw was my parents work their ass off to go from being extremely poor to being middle class. And I thought to myself, “Well, sales offers an opportunity where I am my own boss and I am the keeper of my own paycheck.”

And I think that it’s very -- the skill sets that I learned in sales have been really useful in building Bravado, not the least of which because it’s a site for sales people, but also because you are own your boss, right. If I wake up at six o’clock in the morning and work really hard no one is patting me on the back to say, “Good job, Sahil,” but you do it because you know that that’s the thing you have to do to be successful. And I think sales trains you to have an incredible work ethic. But there’s a part of sales -- and you mentioned the word stigma. There’s a part of sales that -- I mean we are talking about it in this like fairly normal way. Most people think of salespeople and they think of untrustworthy, slimy, use car selling lemons to an old lady, you know, grease ball, unscrupulous, et cetera. Where does the stigma come from and is it a fair stigma against the world of sales?


Dailius: I think that sales is a so deep and there’s so many layers to what you can sell. And in that same way selling a car versus complex enterprise software that’s cloud dependent and highly technical, those are two different things but they both share the same profession label when you fill out a job application or go for a loan, it will say sales professional, right? But I think the stigma comes because there’s such a wide gambit of different occupations or subgroups within sales. I think secondly, we always talk about, and especially in the valley there’s a lot of movements to evangelize or elevate the profession, they use that language.

But really if you look societally it’s still falling behind. You have marketing as a subject to any tertiary institute I’ve ever been. But sales ops, rev ops, sales techniques, history of sales, these are all great subjects that are really meaty. And one of my personal goals is I don’t want to do this forever. I think if I do so okay, I want to go back to university and structure some of these and make it something that people want to study and they want to learn because they’re going to be doing it a hell of a lot more than a marketing minor when they’re in many jobs outside of marketing specifically.


Sahil: Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point you bring out, you know, I had a conversation with the -- one of the career center executive at the University of San Francisco and she told me that the majority of seniors who come to her and seek council on what profession they should get into, what jobs they should apply for, the majority of them want to work for a tech company, right. It’s kind of the flavor of the thing in San Francisco. And she looks at them and she says, “Are you technical?” And if the answer is yes, she says, “All right, go apply to be an engineer in products or, you know, design or whatnot.” If you’re not technical she says, “Okay, go apply to be an SDR or a sales person.”

When she tells the technical people what they can do, they’re super excited and motivated. When she tells the non-technical people what they can do, the students, the graduate, the young women and the young men recoil against it and say, “I didn’t spend all this money, my parents didn’t send me to college just for me to become a sales person.” You know, I’m a college graduate, like I did well in my class, I don’t need to -- like I don’t need to do sales as if it is a profession to be pitied or a profession to only fall into under, you know, with no other choice, right, like I’ll do anything but this.

And that’s just how bullshit, right? All of it is just bullshit, like let’s just be honest, some of the most brilliant people that I have ever met have been individual sales people, VPs of sales, CROs, et cetera. And there is a number of studies that have been done on this, but there are more CEOs of Fortune 500 companies that have a background in sales than any other departmental experience, marketing, finance, technology, et cetera; sales create CEOs and create great leaders. So, maybe I’ll ask the question just again, like why is there the stigma and why is sales considered to be a poor profession for someone to get into, why is there no respect for the world of sales?


Dailius: Yeah, I think that one thing is that we’ve gone through a good enough job of telling that story. I feel that if we were able to circulate those metrics into the tertiary institutions, if we were able to have sales movies where, you know, most of them didn’t do cocaine and end up in prison, right. There needs to be some kind of positive sentiment around the profession. And what I always draw the analogy, my homeland is the country of criminals, Australia. It was founded in 1788 and England sent all its best criminals over there to go rot. And that’s where half of my heritage comes from. But at the same time, there are a number of English people who said, hang on, let’s move to Australian because there’s a better life and we can cultivate the land and become farmers, right?

But in order to become farmers, they had to do, what? They had to step on a boat for nine months where 10% of them died from scurvy and other diseases. And in the same way, these people who will love pure sales their whole life, but there’s also a cohort of people who it’s okay to see sales as a pathway because the skills are so transferrable and I feel that they’re not cognizant of the fact that they need to step on this boat. They’re too busy worried about being a top investment banker or a top VC or a top CEO. So, they don’t acknowledge that journey and the skills that are required because I’ll tell you what, you step in a room with any one of those three examples I said, they’re all selling to you whether they like or not and the ones that can’t sell stuck at their job. And that’s my response to that point again.


Sahil: I love it and I couldn’t agree more, you know, I couldn't agree more. And just on this point, I want to make sure that I acknowledge that sales people have done plenty, ourselves. We ourselves have done plenty to discredit our own profession. I don’t want to -- I don’t want to sit here and make it seemed like the world looks at sales in a poor way because of external factors only. No, I think we are entirely culpable in our own reputation. The short cuts, the lying, the information, you know, juggling of truth, misleading of prospects, charging different prices to different people to get away with it, you know, I think that we have done a lot ourselves to earn the reputation that we have of being untrustworthy.

But I also think that the world is changing, you know, and your experience at TrustRadius, you know, is certainly proof of that. Perhaps you could share the story both of how we initially met because I think it’s a fascinating one. Your experience of TrustRadius and kind of where you see the world of sales going in a time and a place in which sales people no longer have the luxury of an information gap in order to strong arm a prospect into a taking a call with them.


Dailius: Yeah, fantastic question. So I had been a sales leaders for almost two years or so before I moved to America and was again a sales leader, but when I decided to leave that company, I was very apprehensive about becoming a quota carrying again, and my TrustRadius position involves that. And I took the role there not knowing if that would be positive or negative, but one other point to take from this podcast is any leader should get back in the saddle if they haven’t done for three to five years, at least that they can carry small bag, everyone respects them for it. And I went into TrustRadius with previous history of building Australia’s biggest review site in West Johnson’s small businesses, it’s part of a family thing.

And TrustRadius, for those who don’t know, is a site where people who are investigating B2B software will use a site like this to read what other users say and help use that knowledge to inform their purchasing decisions. And the role is amazing because those several phenomena that I felt, the first is that people don’t want to talk to sales people even more than ever, I feel, because they’re used to buying products now where they can do everything themselves, they have a free trial. They also can use sites like TrustRadius that -- you know, Yelp for restaurants, or Glassdoor where you were for jobs.

And so, there’s really a strange buying atmosphere. The third thing was that all vendors, like, god, how many of you have clicked on an ad at LinkedIn would probably agree, it’s all the same crap, excuse the French, but every vendor is saying that they’re number on this and they all put out some bland white paper that’s about the same stuff that no one wants to read. So, it’s super hard to differentiate yourself in the sale when everyone is doing exactly the same thing. And so, that was the milieu, the kind of theme that was really present and palpable in that last role.


Sahil: So I think, you know, when you talk about people -- buyer’s changing habit and you mentioned that today we’re able to buy everything online and, you know, we have Amazon reviews and then, they buy are, you know, our scale or our lamp or whatever we’re buying or, you know, you’re able to go on to Glassdoor and read about five different companies and then, decide which one to work for, you’re able to go on to Tripadvisor and read reviews of hotels or Yelp and read reviews of restaurants or et cetera, et cetera.

That I think is -- it’s both true and false to some extent. And where I think it’s true is certainly that, you know, this is the world in which we live, but let’s be honest, right, most restaurants on Yelp have a between three to four star rating, I think something around 70% of restaurants or 75% of restaurants on Yelp have between three -- either 3, 3 1/2, or 4 star reviews. The average restaurant that I see on Yelp has like 100 to 200 reviews. I read two of them, maybe three, I mostly just look at the pictures. You know, there is this corpus of data that is being built up which is that, you know, here’s hundreds of experiences the diners have had, but distilling that information and being able to decode which one is right for me is still very difficult, you know, like for -- and in a lot of instances, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

And so you have 20 people who go to a restaurant, three of them find it too spicy, five of them find it to bland, ten of them find it okay and, you know, seven of them find it delicious. What does that mean, right? Like, and so synthesizing experiences is still really difficult. And if you’ve ever tried to buy a product on Amazon and seen, you know, a product that has 4,000 reviews and a 4.7 rating and another competitive product that has 2,600 reviews and a 4.6 rating and you read through the reviews and it’s all kind of the same, it’s not that easy to actually distinguish which products I should buy or not buy.

And so I end up doing a second level search where I’m just looking for like a curated review of some sort, right, someone who’s like I’ve tested these three products and let me show you, you know, like one of those articles from like Thrillist or Seven by Seven or some other site like that. And so, I guess, the point that I’m trying to make is I think reviews are really powerful, but being able to personalize the content that you’re seeing to apply to you as -- in your case is really important and I don’t know that we’ve done the best job of getting there yet. I don’t know if you would agree with that, I’m curious.


Dailius: Yes, this is a rat hole for me because then I start getting angry about Account Based Marketing and all these stuff. So, one thing, I’ll just comment on some trends. For instance, we talked about account based relevance in going off the people at correct companies and personas, but the problem is as you’ve said even if you know who you’re going after how do you make content that’s relevant to them because if you’re able to share those stories and insights closer to when they enter your funnel, then you’re going to say more relevant than the brand using generic examples.

And I feel that these review sites are super good -- they’re like a treasure trove of data that’s waiting to be unpacked because as marketers and salespeople start to realize how you can apply this, it’s going to augment the way things are. I think there’s a couple of things we’re seeing, we’re seeing that these sites now serving you content based on your Facebook login or your LinkedIn login, which if you look at reference selling, it’s so much more powerful if someone said, hey, so he’ll said X about this product, and that recommends that content based on our relationship.”

I’m going to want to read that a hundred times more and an example of that was Dan Murphy’s shout to you, my Australian friend, Dan just got in touch with me the other day, he’s like, “I didn’t know you use Pipedrive, I read your review the other day, it got served to me.” I’m like that’s exactly the kind of correct use of that material. Final point is that the usage of reviews and these external proof point is infused in the buyer’s journey. There’s the top level impression, so you want to show that there’s a critical massive feedback, but when you are midstage as you said you want to actually select or hand select some examples that truly speak to what you’re trying to solve.

And then, at the end, let’s think about this is rarely, you know, in our cases where the decision makers, probably in our firms, but in the firms who sell too there’s unknown decision makers. At the end of the journey at contract stage, that’s when they’re checking these review sites anyway just for that final tick. So it’s -- the story is quite extensive now with how customers are using all this in my opinion.


Sahil: I would agree with everything that you said because I think, you know, and especially on that note about personalized content. You know, I think that that’s so important. It’s so important to be able to serve - whether it's reviews or its content - that is socially proofed by your network. And I think that is an increasingly more powerful and more important use case.

You know, one of the things that with grapple with at Bravado on a regular basis is, you know, salespeople are coming and they’re getting testimonials from their customers, they’re building positive brand reputations for themselves. As buyers, as their prospects come to visit their Bravado page and they’re starting to read those reviews from their customers and try to understand, hey, is this the salesperson I want to work with, is this somebody I could trust? How do we make that information more and more contextually relevant? How do we make sure that if I’m the sales person and you’re my prospect and let’s say that, you know, our mutual contact, Jill wrote me a testimonial, how do I make sure that when you come to the Bravado site that you see Jill’s review first.

You know, this is something that we grapple with and we think about all the time. I think that what makes that really interesting in particular though is that it may not be the relationship you have with somebody that governs whether you trust the review or not, it might be the fact that they’re in the same shoes with you, right. Like, so you mentioned being the, you know, you’re currently running sales at Get Accept If somebody who is, it doesn’t even need to be a direct competitor, but if there’s a company that does something similar to get accepted, they have a VP of sales that commented on a product. And maybe you don’t even know this person, but if he or she commented on the product, then you see that that’s going to be really influential to you because you’re going to say, “Well, wait a minute, if this person is finding value in it and I know that what they do is very similar to what I do, then maybe, you know, I should also pay attention to this.” So, I think that relevance has a number of dimensions to it than trying to unlock in which order you should show relevance, I think it’s something that we think about on a regular basis.


Dailius: Definitely. I’m also thinking as we’re talking, we didn’t even touched on how we met or why I think it’s important that people consider Bravado, not that it’s a direct plug, but I think it’s relevant, right?


Sahil: Thank you. I appreciate it.


Dailius: Plug time everyone! But I actually -- so to be transparent, I don’t use Bravado yet and I probably will. So, that is also shows that this is an authentic statement. But how we came into friends is I saw someone that I was speaking to, you know, who’s a mutual friend mentioned Bravado early on in the piece. And when I logged into the site I also was a little bit saddened because I had an idea similar to Bravado as I was working at TrustRadius I was never going to do it because I’m so busy and I’m not taking the rest to be a founder again for another couple of years. But what I found was that no one trusted or believe me as a sales person for one; secondly, I wanted to be able to get testimony in a way that was -- so to set the scene, right now, when you ask companies to go on the record, these review sites are great because they’re not the conventional PR channel that you have to deal with because you can circumvent that.

But what happens if I wanted to get testimony from someone who didn’t proceed with me or maybe there’s other circumstances, but I could still use that logo and that positivity to go after their competitors and to use that to further my career. And that’s where I really saw this kind of helping in the final areas that I do all these deals and do all these work, but if I was fired tomorrow and I had nothing, no one would ever believe it unless I was really, really thorough with references and laying that out. So with that in mind, when I saw what you guys have done, I was like, this is a no-brainer for any sales person. You’ve got to proceed down this path because if you leverage it properly, there’s so much positive exponality to begin from doing it.


Sahil: Well, first of all, I appreciate very much your kind words. You know, we have never actually discussed Bravado on any other Future of Sales episode. And the purpose of this podcast is certainly not to plug the Bravado product, but in your particular case I think it is so relevant because you have the experience at TrustRadius of B2B buyers and getting reviews and obviously your background and your experience in Australia in working with reviews and obviously, my experience in Glassdoor around reviews. And so, I think we’ve just touched on the topic, you know, in so many different ways. Something that you just said though which I, you know, and it saddens me a bit to hear this, but it’s also just a reality, you know, you say nobody trust or believes a sales person. And that’s just true, right. Objectively, that is true. If, you know, you walk into a room and you say, “Hey, I’m a salesperson” you lose credibility, you don’t gain it, right? And if you walk into a room and say I’m a doctor, people respect your opinion on medicine. If you walk into the room and say --


Dailius: Exactly.


Sahil: And I say I’m a mechanic, people respect your opinion when it comes to auto, you know, an automotive mechanic and now, when people want to ask you questions about their cars. You walk in and say I’m tech salesperson no one wants to talk tech with you, right. They’re like, oh, there’s person is going to try to scam me or something. And I just think that that were in fact to the stigma of conversation in a way and I think that this conversation is kind of all in nutshelled together by this, which is, you know, the mission that we have which is not just ours, by the way, there are many fantastic companies that are trying to do very, very similar things and we are, but a speck in that ecosystem. But the mission is, you know, eliminate the stigma around sales, give respect to the profession of sales, and champion sales people and have a way for them to be believed and be trusted. Is it possible? Is that even -- I mean forget about Bravado and just ourselves, so just as a whole, is it possible that sales will ever not have a stigma?


Dailius: It’s an interesting point. I’d say that let’s take the general sample of people in, say, business to business. And I don’t care what you say, I call bullshit if you disagree with me on this point, some people will go because I go, “Do you hate sales people?” And they go, “Oh, no, I don’t.” And you can tell they’re lying. Most -- generally, everyone hates sales people. Even I hate sales people at times when they’re bad, right. But in the same way, the guy who sold me my TV that time in Australia who I love, he was a legend for recommending, I got a particular feature that I use every day to record back when there wasn’t, you know, the recording boxes, and it changed my life. I could watch the football after I came back from the gym and I went and saw that guy for every tech needs that I needed.

So people hate sales people up until the point that they actually get something from them. And at times, then they’re actually going to love the sales people more than anyone because the salesperson is akin to a doctor or a fitness trainer or someone who could change the way you do things. And so, one thing that I’d like to introduce in this podcast is often I quote the Marry Poppins’ analogy, but in that show, you know, they say a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. And often, even if we hate it or not, I think the issue is not, you know, we’re talking about the stigma and we should do positive things to change that and we will, but even if we can’t change it what’s more important is that we’re biting the bullet of sales professionals and same.

You know what, if this customer really see this characteristics that are conducive to me being able to help them, I don’t mind giving them the sugar, I don’t mind giving them something that they may not really like to process and getting sold to right at the start. But when those benefits sink in and when that medicine does it job, they’ll come back and give you a hug and say thank you for doing that. So, my point is the sales process can be tough, the prospect might say not now, not now, I don’t want to do it. But if it’s in the right case and you elevate and you do actually encourage them to proceed sometimes that’s both of you are interested to do it. So, don’t be afraid to embrace that, it’s one of the key messages in my mind.


Sahil: Yeah. I mean I, you know, I couldn’t agree with you more, you know, when you describe the relationship that customers build with those people that they know and trust and love, some of my dearest friends, people who came to my wedding, people whose weddings and at the birth of whose kids and their kids’ birthday parties that I have been to have been customers of mine, right, have been people that were actively trying to avoid to ever talking to me and ignored countless emails and calls for me until in some unfortunate moment of their lives and some moment that I was able to see just a moment of their attention, and from it we were able to bring and build a relationship that has in some cases spend decades not just years, not just months.

And so I think that, you know, it is -- what you’re saying is true, which is that, you know, if you can break through the noise and really build an authentic relationship with somebody, you lose the stigma of I am a sales person, you are a buyer, we are in the sales process and you all of a sudden become two people on the journey together. And I think, you know, that -- the experience that we all kind of covet and dream of on both sides of that aisle.


Dailius: Yeah, the marriages aisle.


Sahil: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. So, I want to end by just asking you one more question. I mean we named this podcast the Future of Sales for two reasons, you know, one was, you know, we wanted very much to have a dialogue about that which is to come not that which has been because we feel like there’s a lot of conversation, especially on LinkedIn that you mentioned from talking heads describing all of the tactics that you need to do in order to breakthrough in sales today. The vast majority of which are bullshit. And then, I mean just to be honest.

And then, secondly, you have -- and the other main reason that we really focus on the name of Future of Sales is because, you know, none of us, all of us have opinions and ideas and none of us know for sure what exactly is going to happen to the profession. I mean there’s cries of like the bots are coming and they’re going to steal all the jobs and in two years, they’ll be no more SDRs and, you know, or you know, I mean, I hear all sort of theories. What’s yours? Where, you know, let’s say like today, you know, we’re sitting here in April of 2018. Let’s fast forward it to April of 2021 or 2022, you know, three, four years have gone by, breakout your crystal balls, go visit the Oracle at Delphi, you can use the analog that you prefer, what is the going to happen in the Future of Sales, Dailius, and putting you on the record?


Dailius: Well, you guys -- you guys haven’t got the privilege to hear my ghost telling stories yet, where my premonitions about the future in things that I -- since I’ve drink -- had all these fluorinated water, obviously, I think I’m getting less and less of these premonitions.


Sahil: So maybe it’s whatever was in the water and not -- they are crazy perhaps. But anyway, I digress.


Dailius: So if you want those stories, you can ask me in the comments, so I’ll do a follow up and I’ll tell some of them. I think that the future of -- there’s many elements, I think the first thing is enterprise is still as dirty and has so many moving parts as it always has even though we talk about the cloud, because the cloud allows you to do so many more things that are integrated that creates its own mess. And so I feel like the enterprise is going to be safe for salespeople for a long time to come. I don’t see much change there and people who write that stuff just want to get clicks and keep their job.

On the lower end, I think that if we talk about self-service software or things that are more transactional, I think there is changed between -- it’s more for people doing outbound selling, and because it’s because it’s very expensive to have a person on the phone and doing emails all the time, to potentially less qualified people helping them more proactively through support as they’re in that self-service journey. And so, my feeling is that you see chatbots and AI and a lot of talk about this augmenting that experience when you’re using a product. I think that will help, but I think that people will become a lot more support orientated inside those products versus actually putting people through buyer journeys to small to APVs. I don’t think -- I think that will dilute.

In terms outreach stuff, the final thing I wanted to mention in this futuristic point is that the rate of success of emails is falling and this is just something that I’ve seen for years and then, it just a curve that this keeps going like that. At the same time, it’s just like talking to a man or a woman at a bar, a lot of people do it. But if you do it in a good way and you’re wearing something that stands out, it’s easier than ever.

So in an age of terrible email output and in declining consumption of that output, there’s still a lot of room to be the Holy Grail. But I think we’re going to see a privatized channel of communication develop where things like Slack but maybe something else, an email 2.0 that are not smart enough to think about where it will be very centric on that internal company. And companies will be reaching out to branch they want to work with a lot more and it will harder for us to get in through that digital method. So then, events and these other things are going to be the ways that we need to break into those bigger businesses from my mind, but you ask a tough question, if I’m right about any of these stuff I should get payment in 2021 here?


Sahil: It depends if I still have a job. And so if I still have the means to pay you and heaven knows, I’ll be paying you in some cryptocurrency, so it won’t be -- probably it won’t be Bitcoin or Ethereum, it will be something we’ve never heard of and we’ll go from there. But if anybody knows which one it is, feel free to message me privately. And so, you know, Dailius, thank you so much for your time. I want to say just to that last point that you made which I, you know, really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on as I’m sure all of our viewers did as well. You know, when you’re talking about the enterprise and you’re talking about people buying, you know, products versus the smaller APVs, look, you know, we have successfully as a population eliminated the need to go to Toys R Us. I know this because they’re shutting down. We’ve eliminated the -- I mean the giraffe -- Geoffrey the Giraffe was part of my childhood.


Dailius: I love that. And I used to -- I go in there and throw the fake basketballs around for a bit of fun before a movie and then, I used to into the movie even I’m 20 years old.


Sahil: It’s because you weren’t buying the basketballs, that’s the problem.


Dailius: Yeah, that’s the problem. That’s why they shut down.


Sahil: Yeah, maybe they just should have charged you a couple of bucks to come and play in there like a jamboree for teenagers and young adults. Anywho, so look, I mean, you know, we have successfully gotten rid of the need to go to RadioShack or Circuit City and, you know, with any luck Best Buy soon as well. And so, where does that leave us? Have we gone rid of car dealerships, yet? No. You know, we haven’t gone rid of car dealerships yet. We’ve had car and driver magazine and we’ve had reviews on cars and we’ve had all these things and yet startups like BB, which have raised hundreds of millions of dollars have crashed and burned and failed because people are scared to buy a car online that they’ve never seen and they’re scared to make a purchase for $40, $50, $100,000 without like going to the dealership and asking that human being, the human on the other end, a bunch of nuanced question, some sophisticated and some not so that give you a measure of trust and comfort.

And I think that’s not to say the people don’t research as far as online, of course, they do; but it is to say that it is just part of the step and that the human interaction is a massive part of that step as well. And I think that that remains true for technology as well. You know, the vast majority of technology buyers are not technical, you know, if you’re buying Workday or Success Factors and you’re the head of the HR, the company, odds are at least somewhat decent that you can’t code and you don’t understand the nuance of what makes one of these products that are worse than the other. Save for the experience that you’ve had on the front end using the product and when the recommendations of your peers and then, you know, maybe some marketing materials or whatnot.

And so without being able to fundamentally understand the product at its kind of bite level, you need that human being that you can trust and talk to and can give you comfort and confidence in your decision. I think that that’s not going away and I think that the human -- I think that the Future of Sales is one in which the salesperson is more like a project or a product, it’s more like a project manager than they are a salesperson. They’re more technical.

They’re more aligned to the interest of the buyer than ever before, you know, do I think that the days of commission sales people might be coming to an end, potentially, do I think that the concept of territories might come to an end one day, potentially. I think that there’s a lot of systems that we’ve build that are very self-serving on the vendor side that don’t have any benefit to the buyer or the customer. And so, I believe that there are a lot of things that will change, but one thing that will never change is that if you are somebody who is trustworthy, someone who is an expert in your field and somebody who inspires confidence and trust from your buyers, then you have a job and you’ll be valued in your place in the tech ecosystem. That’s just my opinion.


Dailius: Yeah, I agree with that. And the final thought is when you have machines, if you want to know what it’s like to be marketed to by machines, you got to sleep on a cold night and put your Apple or iMac on your leg because that feeling that you get of the cold metal against your skin is how a buyer feels when they’re being marketed to automatically, it’s that, and it’s artificial and cold. The humans add the flavor, and just what we saw in say the -- I’d say ’96 to 2002 where everyone outsourced their call centers to India and the Philippines and other countries, you saw in in UK, US, and Australia and emergence with companies who promise to have their call centers local got an up spike in business.

So, in the same way, some of the firms that keep the humans in the space even if you have a really good bot, they’ll be people who’ll start to say, “Oh, are you a bot or a human?” And then might get preference to the brands that are actually investing money in that approach, I feel too, but it’s exciting times ahead and who knows that we could be blown to smithereens by many enemies on this webcast, so hopefully we get there, but I’m optimistic.


Sahil: I’m optimistic too man, I’m optimistic too. And, you know, we have to have you back on. I feel like we could spend hours and hours and hours doing this. And every time I talk to you I feel much more the same. I think all of our viewers and our listeners are going to get so much from this conversation. Thanks to your wisdom and transparency and willingness to share. Dailius, thank you so much for the time, sir. I wish you a wonderful the rest of your day and we’ll look forward to the next time that we can steal you for a few minutes on the Future of Sales.


Dailius: And be proud sellers, be strong and proud and have a concept that you’re doing a good thing in this line of work.


Sahil: I love it, man. You heard it from the man himself. All right, Dailius, thank you very much. That wraps another episode of the Future of Sales and thank you very much. Have a great day. Bye.

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